Top of the mornin’
Happy St. Patrick’s Day to all the Irish, the Irish-Americans and the Irish-wannabes!
So… are you Irish? Really Irish? Irish right down to your molecular level? Irish in your very DNA?
The answer is… well… maybe.
And you may even be able to prove it.
Now that doesn’t include The Legal Genealogist who once heard a Buchanan cousin announce at a family reunion that we were all descended from the Great Irish Kings of some ancient century, third or fourth as I recall, and whose proof consisted of something vaguely along the lines of “well, we’re Buchanans and I read it on the Internet.”1 The fact that our paper trail dead-ends with James Buchanan who died in Maryland in 17512 is just a detail.
No, you need to be male, because the DNA that’s associated with a distinctive Irish type is a set of YDNA markers generally known as those of Niall Nóigiallach – Niall of the Nine Hostages.
And YDNA, remember, is the kind of DNA that only men have and that passes from a father only to his sons and from his sons to his grandsons and so on.3
In 2006, researchers from Trinity College in Dublin announced that a high percentage of Irish men, including roughly one in five in northwestern Ireland, all had the same basic set of YDNA markers. The study they’d conducted showed “a significant association with surnamed purported to have descended from the import important and enduring dynasty of early medieval Ireland, the Uí Níill.”4 They found that roughly 8% of Irish men had that YDNA chromosome, 21% in northwestern Ireland — and as much as one in 50 of American men who are descended from Irish immigrants with names like O’Connor, Flynn, Egan, Hynes, O’Reilly and Quinn.5
Formerly called R1b1c7 and now known as R-M222, that haplogroup has these markers:
Niall of the Nine Hostages markers
(Image from Family Tree DNA)
And that YDNA signature, it’s believed, suggests that “the 5th-century warlord known as ‘Niall of the Nine Hostages’ may be the ancestor of one in 12 Irishmen.”6 True, the study authors didn’t go quite that far. They concluded: “Figures such as Niall of the Nine Hostages reside at the cusp of mythology and history, but our results do seem to confirm the existence of a single early-medieval progenitor to the most powerful and enduring Irish dynasty.”7
So who was this Niall dude anyhow? Well… that’s a bit tough to report reliably, since nobody was around in the fourth century writing down history and preserving it. Assuming he’s on the history side and not the mythology side, he’s supposed to have reigned between 368 A.D. (or maybe 378 A.D.) and 395 A.D. (or maybe 405 A.D.)… and maybe later.8
There’s a wonderful purely legendary biography of Niall that has him left on the ground to be eaten by birds but rescued by a poet and hidden away until he’s grown and kissing a hag who turns into a princess and grants him and 26 generations of descendants the High Kingship of Ireland.9 (Hey, I said it was legend.)
In any case, Niall is supposed to have had sons. Lots of sons. And grandsons. And great grandsons. And that’s perfectly consistent with the Ireland of that time and for some time thereafter. The study authors note that “even though medieval Ireland was Christian, earlier marriage customs persisted and allowed divorce and concubinage” and they cited as an example an Irish noble in the 15th century — purportedly a Niall descendant — who himself “had 18 sons with 10 different women and counted 59 grandsons in the male line.”10
So if your YDNA is R-M222, a particularly happy St. Patrick’s Day to you!
We’ll leave the issue of all those Scots with R-M22211 for another day…
SOURCES
- See, e.g. “Origins of Clan Buchanan,” Our Buchanan Family (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ancestorsofcedric/Buchanan.htm : accessed 16 Mar 2013) (“Another commonly accepted account relates that Anselan Buey O’Kyan also known as Auslan O’Cahan (pronounced O’Kane), descended from the long line of Irish Kings, was son to the King of Ulster”). ↩
- Probate file, Estate of James Buchanan, Charles County MD, 1751-1752; Prerogative Court, Accounts, Liber 33, folio 141. ↩
- ISOGG Wiki (http://www.isogg.org/wiki), “Y chromosome DNA tests,” rev. 21 Jan 2013. ↩
- Laoise T. Moore, et al., “A Y-Chromosome Signature of Hegemony in Gaelic Ireland,” American Journal of Human Genetics 78 (Feb 2006): 334-338. ↩
- Ibid. See also Nicholas Wade, “If Irish Claim Nobility, Science May Approve,” New York Times, online edition, published 18 Jan 2006 (http://www.nytimes.com/ : accessed 16 Mar 2006). ↩
- “Matching Niall Nóigiallach – Niall of the Nine Hostages,” Family Tree DNA (http://www.familytreedna.com/ : accessed 16 Mar 2013). ↩
- Moore, et al., “A Y-Chromosome Signature of Hegemony in Gaelic Ireland,” American Journal of Human Genetics 78: 338. ↩
- Wikipedia (http://www.wikipedia.com), “Niall of the Nine Hostages,” rev. 16 Mar 2013. ↩
- Ibid. ↩
- Moore, et al., “A Y-Chromosome Signature of Hegemony in Gaelic Ireland,” American Journal of Human Genetics 78: 336. ↩
- See “R-M222 Haplogroup Project (formerly the R1b1c7 Project)- Background,” Family Tree DNA (http://www.familytreedna.com : accessed 16 Mar 2013). ↩
Can those of us in a different R1b1 subgroup just call him Cousin Niall?
It won’t bother me in the least if you do, Ruy, so go right ahead!
I don’t mind at all. Do note that R1b1 is a broad group that includes non-Celtic branches, including Viking, Anglo-Saxon, Roman, and Basque subtypes.
Well, hit me over the head! – had my brother’s DNA tested about a year and a half ago, looking for any family finder or deep German matches that might help in family origins before Prussia – and almost all Y-matches came up Irish or in case of USA, Irish-sounding. Sometime after, Family Tree DNA added that Niall’s identifier, and then just recently, changed to a badge with Irish flag on a green background – and STILL it never occurred to me that gave us deep, deep braggin’ rights on St Patrick’s day!
Thanks for the wake-up call, Judy! And thanks, Ruy, for “GGGGGG…GF Niall” idea; can’t wait to drop THAT on a few friends claiming l-o-n-g Irish roots!
Now, if I only knew how my line got from Ireland to Germany, then on to Prussia…
As my German grandfather might have said, “Ve haf vays…”
There are all sorts of ways that this could have happened. The Niall marker itself is anywhere from 1000-3000 years old, so the question of _when_ your Irish ancestor moved to what is now Germany is also a big question that you could start investigating through looking for autosomal matches and potentially deeper y-clade searches.
Perhaps your R-M222 ancestor was a medieval Irish scholar who set forth to Rome to study for an advanced degree but fell for a pretty lassie he met along the road from Paris to Rome and returned with her to her parents’ hometown in the Black Forest, and, well, life sort of happened. There are a lot of possibilities 🙂
It makes me feel better to know that my “family stories” may be largely untrue, but at least not quite as outlandish as some!?
Ya gotta love that one, Mary Ann — ya just gotta love it. Half-way between Moses and something, for sure.
I am a match to Nial.
One of the other stories about Nial is that he lead the raid that captured St Patrick as a boy and took him to Ireland. So I have told my grandchildren the Breen’s are responsible for St Patty’ Day, using the argument if their 50th or so Great GF Nial didn’t initially capture St Patty he would have never gone to Ireland and hence there would be no St Patty’s Day.
Another inference is that my 50th Irish Great Grandmother, or so, was a very attractive lass. The argument is that the name Breen does not show up among the early surnames associated with the Ui Nial dynasty, so it is likely my connection might be illegitimate — so assuming she was not just one of the servants, she must have been attractive to get the king’s attention. If anyone knows differently, let me know 😉
And that’s your story and you’re sticking to it, huh, Bob? Works for me!
There is no St. Patty’s Day. Patty is a feminine name. St. Patrick was male…. St. Paddy’s Day.
And you are quite right, Lauren!
Thanks for making me feel better about my second set of DNA results from Ancestry. I have traced 200 years of my fathers Irish side and my DNA results showed 30 percent Scandinavian and no Irish. I finally have an explanation…thanks Judy!
These admixture results are… well, let’s just say they’re a work in progress. (Ancestry says I’m 15% Scandinavian. Right. Sure I am. Uh huh…)
I know this is an older post, but my brother recently did a y37 DNA test and is R-M269 (R1b1a2) which they identify as a match to Niall. I’ve been looking for an explanation for the layperson of the difference between that and the R-M222 you write about here. I’m so new to this, I’m still a bit baffled. So far the scientific explanations are above me and the non-scientific explanations have contradictions or gaps, even at the Family Tree site. Can you suggest any URLs I can go to to educate myself?
R-M269 is the designation given to a big branch of the human family tree that many European men (or men of European extraction) belong to. M222 is a smaller twig coming off that main branch. It may help to look at a graphical representation: http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html shows the R tree as we know it. If you’ll use CTRL+F to find M269, you’ll see it’s R1b1a2, a short ways down the page. Now do a CTRL+F search for M222 and it’s R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a1 — quite a bit further down. Does it help to see it that way?
This is so helpful. I have been searching for the same info on how M269 and M222 are related. I didn’t realize when I had my dad and uncle tested that the names would change as the science progressed.
Thank you so much for clarifying!
I am thoroughly confused. I know I am Irish because my great grandmother, Julia Ann Sullivan,
was born in Cork 1831.
However, the source of my confusion is that Family Tree DNA at first put my nephew William Louis Sloane in the R-M269 with R1b1a2a1a1b3c. They later changed that to R-M222 and
R1b1a2. Then they changed it back to R-M269.
His Kit # 310861
R-M269 is the biggest overall YDNA haplogroup in Europe: “Haplogroup R1b (R-M343) is the most frequently occurring Y-chromosome haplogroup in Western Europe and the most common haplogroup in the genetic genealogy databases. R1b1a2 (R-M269) is the dominant branch of R1b in Western Europe.” (ISOGG Wiki.) If you haven’t done more than basic testing, that’s where you usually will end up if you’re R.
Actually, I had my nephew tested to the 111 markers.
I should have clarified that the YSTR tests (the markers) are generally used to assign people to haplogroups on a broad basis as a prediction, but that SNP tests (additional tests beyond the markers themselves) are generally used to nail it down. I see your nephew’s kit as an “unmatched R-M222” but his markers don’t seem to line up 100% with the expected values for R-M222 and that’s likely why he was shifted back into the bigger group by FTDNA. To assign him more specifically, you might want to consider SNP testing, and to decide which SNPs you should consult with the R project (and Sloane project) administrators.
Please do consult the tree. There is a “middle” group between the broad R-M269 clade and the narrow “Niall” R-M222 clade known as R-L21 that is Celtic, but that also includes people of Welsh, Cornish, and other Celtic backgrounds as well.
So, all R-M222’s are R-L21, but not all R-L21’s are R-M222.
Thank you so much, Judy, for all your information. I’m not
accustomed to such prompt and thorough responses.
I know about the fact that my nephew is unmatched and it
is a source of frustration for me. When I think of how many
Sloanes of our “tribe” there must be and no one else seems
to have had their DNA tested.
Thank you again Judy.
It sure is frustrating when our lines don’t match others, isn’t it? I have Robertsons in my family tree — talk about a common name! — and yet no close YDNA matches. Sigh!
Good Morning Judy,
I more recently had my nephew’s DNA tested with 23andMe and this is what they came up with.
R1b1b2a1a2f2
I don’t exactly know what that means except that I know they found family matches, some of whom I knew about and two great grandsons of my sister who share the mtDNA of Julia Ann Sullivan (H13a1a)that they inherited from their mother.
23andMe’s YDNA haplogroup is even more of an estimate because its emphasis is on the autosomal element (inheritance from both parents) not YDNA (inherited from father only by sons). So use the 23andMe data only to help locate cousins, not to work the direct male line.
O.K. but now I am even more confused. What do you think of “ancestry.com”
Would it be of any use to submit my nephew’s DNA?
It isn’t easy to get a handle on DNA, but what seems to be throwing you here the most is the difference in the TYPES of DNA being tested and what it can tell you. You might want to work through the basics of DNA again just as a refresher to be sure you understand what the tests do and don’t show. This post (https://www.legalgenealogist.com/blog/2012/12/02/dna-education-the-easy-way/) gives you some links that should still be active.
If you are looking for your own paternal Y-haplotype, testing your nephew would work as long as this nephew is your brother’s son. If you test your sister’s son or a nephew related to you by marriage, you will get someone else’s YDNA markers (unless, of course, there has been incest, which is unlikely).
Note that the last time I checked, AncestryDNA did not do YDNA testing. 23AndMe does, I believe. If you are specifically interested in knowing your YDNA line, do your homework first and confirm that you are getting the right test!
AncestryDNA is strictly an autosomal test — it does not test YDNA at all. 23andMe gives you an estimate of YDNA haplogroup but the results can’t be used to find matches and can’t be used to join surname projects. So anyone serious about YDNA testing must test with a company like Family Tree DNA.
Thank you so much for all your help, Judy.
The origins of my direct paternal line have been hazed in mystery and a lack of sufficient records of early 19th century Kentucky. I had my YDNA tested and it turned out to be R-M222, the Niall marker. This makes a lot of sense and helps me close in on the actual story of my ancestors. It looks like they were probably from the “Ulster Scots” population of poor farmers who left Ireland en masse in the 1700’s to settle Appalachia, becoming the back-country, Celtic-fiddling, moonshining, gun-obsessed hillbillies of American lore.
>> back-country, Celtic-fiddling, moonshining, gun-obsessed hillbillies
We’re cousins then, I’m sure!
Does it make sense that FTDNA gave my dad the Niall of the Nine badge after his recent YSTR37 test even though he is R-L20? Sure, R-M222 and R-L20 are both downstream from R-M269, but they are downstream in different ways and didn’t the split happen in a time frame that would not be compatible with an R-L20 person being able to be a Niall descendant?
Does the FTDNA Niall badge use a few STR markers and forget to also check against haplogroup as determined by SNPs? (maybe since we are a Geno 2.0 NG transfer it forget to check against the transferred SNPs for the badge?). Or could be we actually have been correctly given the badge?
I think we probably received the badge in error but am not sure. Even if so, I wonder if it at least means that we have a somewhat unusual STR pattern for an R-L20 line?
(Our R-L20 is a bit curious regardless in that our ancestry is Latvian and we’ve traced our strictly paternal line to surnameless Latvian serf circa 1795ish (most Latvian were held as serfs until 1826, 1835 or 1861) but R-L20 is not supposed to trace back to the Latvian region way back nor even any of the branches a stage or two higher. So we think it must have come from some solider or trader who passed through or some Baltic German or baron type sometimes in the 1200-1795ish range (we would not have picked up the surname since the ‘higher’ class foreign rulers and such were not allowed to marry Latvian serfs so any son would have become a surnameless serf and the line would have stayed surnameless until 1835 in our case when our line was either allowed to chose or assigned our surname). Either that or the R-L20 branch and earlier were actually found over a much wider area than scientists currently think.)
The Niall badge is assigned based solely on a 12-marker analysis, regardless of what the deeper analysis shows. So it may not make a whole lot of sense, but isn’t any worse than some other assignments…
Thanks. So it’s wrong in our case then (and I’d imagine wrong for quite a lot of R-M269 people. Crazy thing is I now know of an R-M222 person who somehow did not get the badge!).
The badge is likely overly-inclusive, yes.
Hi Judy,
I am a little confused. 23andme has told me my haplogroup is R-M222. I also tested at FTDNA with a Y-67 test but they say I am R-M269. Shouldn’t FTDNA show the more precise result? Should I do more advanced testing?
Yeah, it’s a little surprising, and I’m not sure if this might be a result of nomenclature. I’d ask the folks at FTDNA for an explanation and give them your 23andMe results.
My paternal haplogroup is R-L20 im new to this dna
Hi James, I am new to this too and I am also R-L20 and struggling to find much info on it. Anyway, nice to meet you cousin.
Hi James and Paul are you on the BIG Tree site, also read this article it mentions our L20 http://www.davidkfaux.org/Cimbri-Chronology.pdf
Still not much on our haplogroup
Dad and I are downstream and the earliest Whiteheads we have traced back are around Diss in Norfolk early 1700s